אתה משתמש בדפדפן מיושן. יתכן והאתר הנוכחי יוצג באופן שגוי, כמו כן אתרים אחרים ברשת.
אנא שדרג את הדפדפן או השתמש בדפדפן חילופי.
אנא שדרג את הדפדפן או השתמש בדפדפן חילופי.
For all those in New York..
- פותח הנושא zaranoff
- פורסם בתאריך
לֵייזֶר פֶּלֶס
New member
שלום ל-X-חב"דניק...
ברוך בואך לפורום הקודש. אנחנו לרשותך.
ברוך בואך לפורום הקודש. אנחנו לרשותך.
אוי ויי איז מיר
New member
מהזה בדיוק X ?
X-חבדניק סתם? או X-משיחיסט?
X-חבדניק סתם? או X-משיחיסט?
You judge
I would like to believe that answer is neither. I was never a meshichist in way most meshichistim are today (I was never THAT crazy). I tried to make sense of the mashiach business in a "rational" way (higayon torani.. not secular logic). I wrote pilpulim about the mashiach, and I wanted to believe the Rebbe Shelita when he so plainly hinted that he's The One. At some point I even began writing a book on all the quotes from chazal, rishonim & achronim about mashiach. That's not something a "typical" chabadnik would do either - after all, as they would tell us, the whole reason the torah was given, and the whole purpose of the gmara, rishonim & achronim, is so that the Rebbe Shlita would have references in his Likutay Shichot.... I guess I was too heretical even then, and I innocently thought the reverse. My friends would say that I'm Amalek - Amalek begimatriya safek - because I wasn't heads over heals with this cray.
I would like to believe that answer is neither. I was never a meshichist in way most meshichistim are today (I was never THAT crazy). I tried to make sense of the mashiach business in a "rational" way (higayon torani.. not secular logic). I wrote pilpulim about the mashiach, and I wanted to believe the Rebbe Shelita when he so plainly hinted that he's The One. At some point I even began writing a book on all the quotes from chazal, rishonim & achronim about mashiach. That's not something a "typical" chabadnik would do either - after all, as they would tell us, the whole reason the torah was given, and the whole purpose of the gmara, rishonim & achronim, is so that the Rebbe Shlita would have references in his Likutay Shichot.... I guess I was too heretical even then, and I innocently thought the reverse. My friends would say that I'm Amalek - Amalek begimatriya safek - because I wasn't heads over heals with this cray.
משורר כזה כאילו
New member
../images/Emo46.gifOhhh the Rebe was such a fraud
I believe one day someone will do a reaserch about this maddnes could you imagin the nerve of this guy! - The Rebe. I mean give me a break! How could someone fool so many people for such a long time
I believe one day someone will do a reaserch about this maddnes could you imagin the nerve of this guy! - The Rebe. I mean give me a break! How could someone fool so many people for such a long time
Well.......
as someone who has no particular interest in defending this man (and not to rehash very very old stuff), I have to say that this is not my conclusion. There are many great individuals, leaders of great cults, religions, and spiritual systems, who have remarkable idiosyncrasies and quirks which might seem very peculiar and can easily give the impression of impropriety, but are not really so, at least not within a given system. Interestingly, almost all the ex-Satmars that I met here in NY, still believe that their Rebbe was/is a tsaddik and in their hearts of hearts believe they're "bad boys" for leading the life that they're leading. They still feel guilty, even after years of being out of that world. The ex-Chabadnikim that I know are just the opposite (and, usually, a lot more philosophical - no offense to any ex-Satmars here..). Personally, I don't think of the Rebbe as a tsaddik (the term is meaningless to me), but from a semi-objective point of view I think he was a great spiritual leader, on par with, for example, the Dalai Lama. And the fact he was very reticent makes it much harder to figure out what went on in his head. Calling him a fraud is a bit simplistic IMO. To me the Rebbe is still a riddle wrapped in an enigma .
as someone who has no particular interest in defending this man (and not to rehash very very old stuff), I have to say that this is not my conclusion. There are many great individuals, leaders of great cults, religions, and spiritual systems, who have remarkable idiosyncrasies and quirks which might seem very peculiar and can easily give the impression of impropriety, but are not really so, at least not within a given system. Interestingly, almost all the ex-Satmars that I met here in NY, still believe that their Rebbe was/is a tsaddik and in their hearts of hearts believe they're "bad boys" for leading the life that they're leading. They still feel guilty, even after years of being out of that world. The ex-Chabadnikim that I know are just the opposite (and, usually, a lot more philosophical - no offense to any ex-Satmars here..). Personally, I don't think of the Rebbe as a tsaddik (the term is meaningless to me), but from a semi-objective point of view I think he was a great spiritual leader, on par with, for example, the Dalai Lama. And the fact he was very reticent makes it much harder to figure out what went on in his head. Calling him a fraud is a bit simplistic IMO. To me the Rebbe is still a riddle wrapped in an enigma .
אוי ויי איז מיר
New member
השאלה הייתה חבויה..
רק התכוונתי לשאול מתי יצאת בשאלה? הקישור למשיחיות המטורפת, היה בהקשר לציר הזמן, לפני ג' תמוז, כל החבדניקים היו (קצת) משיחיסטים, ולפני כ"ז אדר, היו כך כולם. בכולופן, ספר עוד קצת על עתצך, אתה בנ"י? נשוי? בן כמה? * כ"ז אדר = היום בו הרבי נכנס לבית חולים. * ג' תמוז = היום בו הוא השתחרר מבית החולים.
רק התכוונתי לשאול מתי יצאת בשאלה? הקישור למשיחיות המטורפת, היה בהקשר לציר הזמן, לפני ג' תמוז, כל החבדניקים היו (קצת) משיחיסטים, ולפני כ"ז אדר, היו כך כולם. בכולופן, ספר עוד קצת על עתצך, אתה בנ"י? נשוי? בן כמה? * כ"ז אדר = היום בו הרבי נכנס לבית חולים. * ג' תמוז = היום בו הוא השתחרר מבית החולים.
It's a process..
Philosophically, I "left" at least a long time before the Maschiach Shlita's timely death. I don't remember the date or "moment". I always had doubts and questions. I wasn't born into a Chabad family (mafdal) - I ran away from home at age 14 to join Chabad in Lod (I’ve been donning rabaynu tam's since my bar-mitzvah). At some point my father (a physicist) gave me a list of questions, such as "why be religious?" For years I suppressed those questions just by delving deeper and deeper into Chasidut .. sitting and pondering "samech vov" (if that means something to you) for 6 hours straight.. so for years those questions didn't bother me consciously. But they were there, unconsciously.. and the unconscious is a lot more powerful than the conscious mind. At some point, I think in the middle of 1991, I began considering those questions seriously, and the more I thought about them, the less sure I became. I realized that I myself didn’t really believe in the answers I’d give people while I was doing 'mivtsoim'. I’m too honest to accept bullshit, especially when it comes from me. In 1993 I read anything I could find on every possible angle on religion, and debated the topics with several of my apikorsishe friends (who simply didn't have the balls to get up and leave) until one day I went over the 13 Irakay Emuna, one by one, and checked to see whether I believe in any of them. When I finished the list, I realized that, no, I don't believe in any of them, and from there the step to stopping all religious practices was fairly short. I remember the first time I wrote on Shabbat. I was writing my journal, lying on the bed in my dorm room, just writing, and I noticed that it was effortless, just like writing on any other day. I remembered reading stories about chozrim besheelah who felt disturbed, fear, guilt etc., when doing the first "sin", and I was happy that I was different. I didn't feel that I "achieved" something, nor did I feel fear or guilt. I've "erased" some of my religious beliefs so well, that I didn't have any emotional response at all. It was something of a test for me, a barometer to see for myself, on an emotional level not just intellectual, where I was. I felt congruent with it all, and since I was still a chabadnik at the time, where everything first starts with the intellect and trickles down to the emotions and practice, I know that since my intellect no longer believed in it, and my emotions were no long attached, that it’s now time to move to the practice, and I stopped keeping all the mitzvoth, while still keeping my external appearance. Shortly thereafter, I flew to Colorado, and I said adios to 770 and my friends, and left, never to return. At the airport, after I checked in but before the flight, I shaved my beard in the men's room. When I finished, I didn't recognize the guy looking at me in the mirror. It was a very powerful moment, a moment that I've taken with me into my life right now. Whenever I catch myself thinking that I can't do this or that, I remember the way I USED to be and the way I am NOW, and know that I CAN do whatever I set my mind to.. Was this answer short enough for you? As to the other stuff - I'm 32, not married, and as far as I know I don't have any kids. And now it's your turn to share something of yourself..
Philosophically, I "left" at least a long time before the Maschiach Shlita's timely death. I don't remember the date or "moment". I always had doubts and questions. I wasn't born into a Chabad family (mafdal) - I ran away from home at age 14 to join Chabad in Lod (I’ve been donning rabaynu tam's since my bar-mitzvah). At some point my father (a physicist) gave me a list of questions, such as "why be religious?" For years I suppressed those questions just by delving deeper and deeper into Chasidut .. sitting and pondering "samech vov" (if that means something to you) for 6 hours straight.. so for years those questions didn't bother me consciously. But they were there, unconsciously.. and the unconscious is a lot more powerful than the conscious mind. At some point, I think in the middle of 1991, I began considering those questions seriously, and the more I thought about them, the less sure I became. I realized that I myself didn’t really believe in the answers I’d give people while I was doing 'mivtsoim'. I’m too honest to accept bullshit, especially when it comes from me. In 1993 I read anything I could find on every possible angle on religion, and debated the topics with several of my apikorsishe friends (who simply didn't have the balls to get up and leave) until one day I went over the 13 Irakay Emuna, one by one, and checked to see whether I believe in any of them. When I finished the list, I realized that, no, I don't believe in any of them, and from there the step to stopping all religious practices was fairly short. I remember the first time I wrote on Shabbat. I was writing my journal, lying on the bed in my dorm room, just writing, and I noticed that it was effortless, just like writing on any other day. I remembered reading stories about chozrim besheelah who felt disturbed, fear, guilt etc., when doing the first "sin", and I was happy that I was different. I didn't feel that I "achieved" something, nor did I feel fear or guilt. I've "erased" some of my religious beliefs so well, that I didn't have any emotional response at all. It was something of a test for me, a barometer to see for myself, on an emotional level not just intellectual, where I was. I felt congruent with it all, and since I was still a chabadnik at the time, where everything first starts with the intellect and trickles down to the emotions and practice, I know that since my intellect no longer believed in it, and my emotions were no long attached, that it’s now time to move to the practice, and I stopped keeping all the mitzvoth, while still keeping my external appearance. Shortly thereafter, I flew to Colorado, and I said adios to 770 and my friends, and left, never to return. At the airport, after I checked in but before the flight, I shaved my beard in the men's room. When I finished, I didn't recognize the guy looking at me in the mirror. It was a very powerful moment, a moment that I've taken with me into my life right now. Whenever I catch myself thinking that I can't do this or that, I remember the way I USED to be and the way I am NOW, and know that I CAN do whatever I set my mind to.. Was this answer short enough for you? As to the other stuff - I'm 32, not married, and as far as I know I don't have any kids. And now it's your turn to share something of yourself..
יוני ויינגרטן
New member
../images/Emo24.gifברוך הבא../images/Emo24.gif
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