התנהגות בפורום

chriswinter

New member
And you're moving to my country?

So I once was involved in a discussion in which I questioned the narrative surrounding the creation and management of the state of Israel, and indicated that my moral compass is quite the different one from many people in this forum. Now I fully understand that people who are brought up to believe a particular narrative will react strongly when they see their beliefs challenged to the core, but seriously, Hate Crimes?

I wouldn't even qualify 20.000 people demonstrating against gay marriage a hate crime. I consider that a misguided expression of a democratic right to disagree. I have never been a member of any military organization, voted left-leaning social parties all of my life, paid all my taxes, have an extensive network of friends from all races and creeds, and have always advocated the equal worth and the equal rights of all human beings on this planet. I am for freedom of expression, freedom of movement and freedom of sexual preference and for the emancipation of women all over the world. As a matter of fact, social injustice has always made me quite angry.

Now just because I am critical of Israel, its propaganda and its actions, I commit hate crimes?

I really wonder what the Palestinians in the tents that recently got beaten the shit out of by 500 policemen in the middle of the night, in their own land, would have to say about hate crimes. Seriously. Netanyahu beats peaceful protesters over the head with billy clubs in order to take the strip of land from them that will make it impossible to have any kind of Palestinian state in the west bank, and because I am critical of things like that, I am the one committing hate crimes?

You ought to get your head examined because you, my friend, are one delusional dipshit.

I suggest you do not move to Europe. I pity the day you will live here and you will get into discussions with Europeans that look at Israel like I do. There are very many that hold the opinion that Israel is an Apartheid regime, and you're going to have to deal with that opinion once you step onto my land and come live in my country. Amsterdam has residents from 180 different countries, and most of those won't see things your way. I wish you all the luck in the world adapting to that notion.

Having said that, you're quite a piece of work. We may have had a discussion once in which I may have stepped on your toes, but you're abusing your power position as a Forum Moderator grossly. You're singling me out by name and opinion, and hanging me out to dry in the village square, ultimately for no other reason than that once upon a time I said something you disagree with. You, sir, turned out to be a turpid asshole.

So why don't you go fuck yourself, you self righteous son of a bitch.
 

yaelli10

New member
מסכימה עם המנהל

ובכל זאת - מן הראוי לחסום את המשתמש הזה. (חנה לתרגם יפה - כריס דה וינטר)
הפורום מיועד לישראלים בהולנד ולא לייצור המפוקפק הזה. בינתיים יש לו יד חופשית והנ"ל לא מפסיק עם השטויות שלו.
 

chriswinter

New member
Translate?

There's nothing to translate. My actual name is exactly as my username on this forum: Chris Winter. Without s-es at the end, without "de", "van" or any such nonsense. While it's nice that you seem to want to remove me, I would sooner vote for removing Amir as forum Moderator on this forum for the simple sake of him being immoral.

As I've indicated, his toes were stepped on some months ago in a political discussion. He tells my wife that I was being agressive, but he conveniently forgets the agression with which he and some other forum members approached me after my initial post. It seems that the word rape is etched in their minds, for some reason or another. Which is weird for two reasons. Firstly, it wasn't what the bulk of the discussion was about, and secondly because there has never been a war without rape on this planet, ever, so it shouldn't be too surprising a concept to deal with when you're involved in conquest. But the gist here is that Amir got terribly offended.

Anyway, that discussion ran its course, and was closed off at some point. I don't have the inclination at all to apologize for anything I said in it, in case you're wondering. I stand behind my opinions because they are well researched and partially based on personal experience.

Two months later, out of the blue, he writes this scathing post in which he accuses me of hate crimes and talks about punishment. This came out of nowhere, unless it was triggered by a post of similar ilk written by Frothed Milk. I've been active on /. since 1995, and have built up excellent Karma in that community, and never in my life have I seen a forum Moderator do a thing such as Amir did. Not anywhere, on any forum I've participated in. He is being personal, spiteful and vengeful, not to mention immensely childish.

Essentially he's inciting the crowd to hatred only because I have an opinion he doesn't like. This kind of moral turpitude is not what you want in your moderator. The fact that the crowd actually goes along in this is an indication that the crowd is not ready or even emotionally equipped to live in a pluralistic, democratic society such as the Netherlands.
 
but...

Isn't your job to "help us" getting into that emotional/mental level that will "allow us" to live in a pluralistic, democratic society such as the Netherlands ?

Or is that only goes for other immigrant communities in the Netherlands ? those who come from a rough background that doesn't connect with Democracy & other Western Human Rights ?

But then again... it would mean that - Israel is supposedly a Democratic & Western country ? since we're "suppose" to know all of that already and be equipped to live in this western world :)

You can't eat the cake & have it too.

Plus, you haven't answered my question in the other post you made - why did you start writing something nasty out of nowhere ? one would accidentally think you're from the middle east, god forbid (figure of speech).
 

חנהר

New member
ישראל מדינה מערבית?

באיזו פלנטה? האם אתה מרגיש שלמפלגות שלנו יש אג׳נדה אחרת, אם תבחר לשמאל או לימין כולם בעד אותה אג׳נדה, אז מה זה כבר משנה? עמית, כריס ניסה לעזור לכם להבין צד אחר של הסתכלות על המצב בישראל והוא לא היחיד בעולם שחושב כך ותאמין לי שהסיבה לכך לא מגיעה משנאה כלפי יהודים. אלא מתוך הסתכלות אובייקטיבית על סדרה של התרחשויות. כיצד עם שלם שמקבל זכות עליונה על עם אחר שכבר היה חי וגר בשטח הזה ורומס כל טיפה של אנושות שאותו עם חשב שאי פעם היה לו ואם בכלל, כאן אני מדברת על השילטון העותומני ולאחריו הבריט. לעזעזאל ראש ממשלה הולנדי לשעבר ווים קוק שנוא על ידי ישראל ולמה? הנ״ל מצא לאחר שנים של הסתכלות על ישראל וההתנהלות שלה כלפי הפלסטנאים כלא מוסרית בעליל. עכשיו אני בתור ישראלית שמעולם לא חשבה שהצורה בה אנחנו מסתכלים על ערבים ישראלים היא כאל אנשים סוג ב׳ היה משהו חריג, מבחינתי לי יש זכות ולהם אין. אז חבר יקר זה לא עובד כך. אף אחד בעולם הזה לא שווה יותר מאדם אחר, כולנו בני אדם רגילים. והצורה בה החברים כאן מתנהגים לכריס מבחינתי זהה לחלוטין לצורה בה כל אחד ואחת מהם מתנהג לערבי ישראלי/פלסטינאי.

אני מגיעה ממשפחה לא יומאת שואה כי לצערי כולם רוססו על ידי הליטאים בדרך ליציאה מהעיר מבינה שרדיפה זה משהו רע וצריך להיפסק. למה שאצביע לחירט ווילדרס למשל רק כי הוא אוהב את ישראל, מה עם זה שהוא שונא מוסלמים, מה שהוא עושה להם זה מה שהיטלר בזמנו עשה ליהודים לפני 1933, אני לא מבינה איך אתם לא רואים את זה.
 
תפסת מרובה לא תפסת

נקודה נקודה:

1. בנוגע למערביותה של ישראל, בוא נחלק את זה לשני חלקים פשוטים:

א. כמו שיהודי חכם פעם אמר - הכל יחסי - ובמזרח התיכון ישראל נחשבת למדינה דמוקרטית ומערבית (זו לא תשובה מספיק טובה בשבילך ובשביל כריס, אשמח לראות דוגמא אחרת באזור שהצליחה להגיע לסטנדרטים שלכם הקוראים למערביות).

ב. לא קראת את הפוסט שלי לעומק - אם ישראל היא אכן מדינה לא מערבית, אז כל הטיעונים שלכם לא תקפים, מכיוון ש"אין לישראלים" את הכלים להבין אתכם, כך שכריס יכול לתקוף גם את מרוקו על היותה מדינה לא דמוקרטית ומתוך זה לתקוף את כל המרוקאים שהיגרו לכאן ואיך הם מעזים בכלל, מכיוון ש"אין להם את המיינדסט המתאים".

תחליטו, או שאנו מערביים/דמוקרטיים ואתם יכולים לדבר איתנו או שאנחנו "ברברים" ולא יכולים.

2. מה זה בדיוק "מפלגות שלנו" ? לא מבין את התיאור.

אם בכוונתך למפלגות השלטון, היו כאלו בעשור האחרון שתמכו בפיתרון שתי מדינות לשני עמים. אם בכוונתך לכלל המפלגות, אז להזכיר לך ולכריס שיש ייצוג פרלמנטרי לערבים-ישראלים (עוד דוגמא "מרתקת" לאפרטהייד, הרי ידוע שלשחורים בדרא"פ היה ייצוג הולם בפרלמנט) אם זה בל"ד, חד"ש ועוד כמה בין לבין.

העובדה שחנין זוהעבי עלתה על המרמרה ולא "ירו בה לאחר מכן" (כמו כל שלטון אפרטהייד איכותי) אמורה לאותת לך משהו.

3. אין לי דבר נגד מישהו שיעזור לנו להבין משהו, אין לי גם שום דבר נגד דעות שונות לחלוטין.

מה שכן יש לי בעיה, זו הדרך בה כריס מתנסח והתנסח בעבר. הוא אומר שהרגש אוחז בנו - אני לא שולל זאת בכלל - אולם שלא ישתמש בזה על מנת לומר שלו יש ראייה אובייקטיבית - אני מבין שהוא השאיר את ילדו בישראל, בניגוד לכמה אחרים כאן, אני לא אומר שזה מגיע לו, מכיוון שאני לא מכיר את הסיטואציה וזה בכלל לא מענייני, אני כן אומר שזה נשמע לי כמו משהו טרגי ועצוב שאני לא מאחל לאף אחד.

זה גם משהו שלי - בתור אבא טרי - מרגיש שמונע כל סוג של אובייקטיביות בנושא. הרגש גם אוחז בכריס, אם הוא ירצה להודות בזה או לא.

אני בטוח שהוא אחז בדעה שלו גם לפני כן, אבל אני די בטוח שהטרגדיה הזו לא עזרה לו עם ישראל יותר מדי.

תקראו קצת את הפוסטים של חיים, בסופו של דבר ישראל היא במזרח התיכון, כשלוקחים את כל האלמנטים במסגרת הזו, זה נראה קצת הרבה אחרת.

4. זה בסדר, גם המשפחה שלי הלכה פייפן בגלל האוקראינים, לכולנו יש סיפור זה או אחר שעיצב את המנטליות שלנו. אולם בסופו של דבר - האם כריס בכלל מבין את המנטליות של המזרח התיכון ?

לא משנה שהוא חי שם שנתיים או 20 שנה, כריס לא נולד לתוך זה, כריס בכל רגע נתון של שהותו בישראל, יכול "לעשות וטו" ללכת לשדה התעופה ולחזור ל"מערביות", כמו שבסופו של דבר הוא עשה. כריס לא חי בסיטואציה בה הוא חייב להתעמת עם זה כל חייו.

ייתכן ואם הוא היה, הוא היה נשאר בעמדתו והופך להיות פעיל בחד"ש או רע"ם-תע"ל וייתכן והוא היה הופך להיות דבר שונה לגמרי. בכל מקרה, הוא לא בסיטואציה הזו.

5. מה שמעניין בכל הסיפור, שבסופו של דבר, מה ההצעה הפרקטית של כריס שתגרום לביטחון אישי-דמוקרטי-מערבי לכל התושבים בין הירדן לים ? חזרה ל-67 ? חזרה ל-48 ? חזרה ל-47 ? אולי בכלל חזרה לשנות ה-50 של המאה ה-19 ? איך הוא יכול להמנע מלהוביל את הישראלים (ודרך אגב, אני מכליל כאן גם את הערבים-ישראלים, אם אתם חושבים שכולם רוצים להיות תחת שלטון פלשתינאי, סימן שלא ביקרתם בלא מעט יישובים ערביים בישראל) אל אותו גורל שהם הובילו את הפלשתינאים ?

או שזה בכלל לא משנה ?
 

chriswinter

New member
Answers

I can talk to anyone. There is no such thing as "inherent" barbarism or "inherent" enlightenment. The liberalism of one's mindset is a final result of a set of social-economic developments that percolate over time. Israel claims to be a democracy, and Israel claims to be sharing Western culture, but in reality the way things are run in Israel is now not even legal in many countries, including the international community. And yet people claim to be educated, democratic and western. Therefore I have an issue with those people. They should know better.

Now on the other hand, if you take a person from the Rif mountains in Morocco, and you take them to Holland, their views can be equally incompatible with our society, but they don't call themselves educated and democratic. The pretense of being civilized is absent. As such, the Moroccan Berber is significantly more honest. You also get what you see.

In both cases, education can definitely help shape the mindset of these people and their children. Like in your case, the notion that Democracy is "relative" is simply not true. You can't treat people of different ethnicities differently and still claim to be democratic. It's a binary notion. Yes or no. Don't pretend to be democratic while denying people their rights. Spending some time in Swedish schools would really give both the Israeli and the Berber some stuff to think about.

To cut a long story short, I detest hypocrisy. To be honest, I think the Israeli rhetoric is a danger to democracy. If the notion of democracy such as it is practiced in Israel gains a foothold or gets taken seriously in this country, it may erode the true consensus democracy we have here.

Then you say there are Arab Knesset members. Actually, the situation is indeed improving. There are 120 Knesset Members, while there are currently 17 Arabic seats. Five of those are Druze that don't want to be labeled Arabic, but OK. Even if we forget for a moment that there is legislation in place that is discriminatory based on religion, 14% of the Knesset is Arabic, while 24.7% of the Israeli population is Arabic.

While 14% is definitely an improvement over past Knessets, the combination of discriminatory legislation, under-representation in the Knesset, the absence of a Bill of Rights and the actual policies enforced by the State are sure indicators the state of democracy hasn't been reached.


It's funny though. The argument that I'm not entitled to my opinion because I wasn't born in Israel and didn't have to live in Israel my entire life is something I've heard many, many times from many people. So you're not allowed to have an opinion on the Netherlands because you're not from here. We might as well close this forum, by your line of reasoning, because y'all are not allowed to discuss us either, right?

It is a fatally flawed line of reasoning. It's not an answer to the actual content of my claims, it is an attempt to discredit the one who voices the claims. Apart from that, there is such a thing as an International Criminal Court, a UN, a Geneva Convention and a Universal Declaration of Human Rights. To cut a long story short, there is a universal notion of what is right and what is wrong.

I don't need to be born in South Africa to realize Apartheid is wrong. Similarly, and the analogy with South Africa holds in more ways you'd like, I don't need to be born in Israel to be of the opinion that the system is immoral.

With regards to your question whether or not I understand the mentality of the Middle East I can argue that I not only spoke with many Middle Eastern Jews (and lived with one for three years, and was integrated in that family), but I also speak to Islamic Moroccans, Egyptians, Tunisians and Arabs. My dentist is a Syrian and my doctor is a Coptic Christian Egyptian. To cut a long story short, I am actually exposed to all kinds of people from the Middle East. More so than the average Israeli.

So yes, I feel I know something of the Middle East. When is the last time you were in Bahrain?

With regards to a practical solution, there is an option to appease Hizbollah, the Palestinians and the complete Arab world that doesn't even involve the '67 borders, for crying out loud.

In 2002, a coalition of Arab countries already offered to completely normalize the relationship with Israel in exchange for a complete withdrawal from the occupied territories and the dismantling of the illegal settlements in the West Bank. This would effectively end the occupation, create a viable (albeit small) Palestinian state.

However, all governments since then have chosen not to act upon this offer. Israel doesn't want peace. It wants to annex the West Bank and get rid of Palestinians there. My belief is that the right wingers want to deport them to Jordan. I am not making this up. Bennett and Lieberman are saying this explicitly. As the elections are held today in Israel, I am quite sure the right wing will gain power. We'll know more tonight.
 
extra extra. read all about it !!!

Sorry for the delayed answer, had too many things to close.

Now... where were we ?

Regarding the points you wrote here:

1. The first two paragraphs are interesting, how can you tell us that we're not educated, not democratic and not western AND finish it with "we should know better" ?

So what are we ? some weird hybrid that is aware and not aware at the same time ?

Regarding the berber from the Atlas mountains, if that is your general notion about Moroccans & their mentality - I think you made your stand clear. PVV - here Chris comes !

2. You write in the 3rd paragraph that "You can't treat people of different ethnicities differently and still claim to be democratic" im sorry to be the one who tells you that, according to this definition - there are no democracies in the world (giving a good example about the Dutch police arresting two Antilians for wearing a T-shirt that said "Zwarte Piet is Racisme" is quite a good example - and please, don't tell me "but what you're doing is much more undemocratic !!" as the poet said - "It's a binary notion. Yes or no"), not even in Sweden unfortunately.

3. ok, you think Israeli rhetoric is a danger to democracy. I can accept that this is your opinion. nothing new about that from your side, actually everyone here are trying to tell you that hearing it for the 10,000th time doesn't really do the trick (even in the tolerable Swedish schools they would tell you "ok Chris, you made your point, please get us some vetebröd from the kitchen").

4. Interesting what you say about Israeli-Arabs MP's in the Knesset, since you imply there aren't enough Israeli-Arab MP's relative to the Israeli-Arab population, are you suggesting that someone is denying them getting into the knesset ? well, maybe you should look at the percentage of people voting from the Israeli-Arab community and maybe then you'll get your answer to why there are so few of them (now, I hope you wont suggest that we should gunpoint them to the voting booth... do you ?!?).

By the way, since you brought up this point - what is the percentage of Muslim MP's in the Dutch Parliament (yes im giving you a freebie, since there are also Indonesians, who said an Israeli can't be a bit nice :)) ? does it correlate to their number in the population ? does the number of minorities in the Scandinavian countries correlate their numbers in those parliaments as well ? owoo, you might be on to something !!!

5. Actually we share the same feeling here, you heard the "you weren't born & lived here" argument and I keep on hearing the "Its quite funny, since i've been hearing this argument many, many times from many people" argument as well.

Let me guess your next examples...

- You don't have to be a mother in order to be a midwife.
- You don't have to have a pacemaker in order to become a cardiologist.

etc. etc.

Come on Chris, you're aiming at doing something in the local & national Dutch politics, are you trying to suggest an ad hominem on me ?

Regarding the subject at hand, you're actually saying that since we are making an opinion here about the Netherlands, you can make an opinion about Israel ? so, you're comparing criticism about Dutch culinary to the dangerous rhetoric of an entire nation being a danger to Democracy ?
hmmm... yes, I can see where you might think its the same.... but no, its not.

Man, im actually afraid to see how you respond to a bad day in the office.

All of the examples you wrote, just show how much you don't understand the heart of the middle-east region:

- Happy that you gave all of those beautiful samples of the World Justice System, now the only thing that is weird about it is - WHY AREN'T THEY PROSECUTING THE BIGGEST THREAT TO DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD ?!

Guess they have bigger threats, weird he...

- You spoke to Middle Eastern Jews, Islamic Moroccans, Egyptians, Tunisians and Arabs ? Your dentist is a Syrian and your doctor is a Coptic Christian Egyptian ?

Owoo... well, I guess you're certified by the above mentioned World Justice Systems.
I mean, what an amazing real-time-experience you can get from all of these conversations.

Now, lets cut it short, the most effective point you mentioned was actually living with a middle-eastern Jew for three years, and being integrated in her family (how was the food ?), true, thats more than most yubba-jubba have, and you know what... you almost had me... if you hadn't added that last line - next section please.

- WHEN IS THE LAST TIME I WAS IN BAHRAIN ?!?

You know who you just reminded me ? George W. Bush when he asked a blind reporter why he's wearing shades on a cloudy day outside.

Well, I was never in Bahrain since I can't go there, because im an Israeli (more than that, when ill get my Dutch passport, I would still prefer not to go there, since they'll stop me for questioning about why I was born in Israel and I know how it can ruin the trip to both me & my Dutch wife), I was in a connection flight through Abu-Dahbi in 2008, but couldnt leave the Duty-Free area - because of my passport again :)

Now, the reason you seriously fucked your last (and only) good argument by this is simple - you're repeating what I said I don't like about your posts - its your style, you're patronizing above everyone, even when you don't understand that it goes against you (all cases actually), like in this incident.

The thing is, that you CAN go to Bahrain, not because you're knowledgeable, prince of Democracy etc. etc. but because you were born Dutch and own a Dutch passport. nothing more, nothing less.

The same goes for all of your "experience" in Israel, in all of those "3 years of integration" you were always an air-conditioned-taxi cab away from Ben-Gurion airport, on your way to the "promised land", you always had a choice, always could leave when "it became too hard" and thats why you can't really understand the situation, just try to judge it with western ideals & philosophy (works great in Egypt now, he? Arab Spring to Muslim Brothers Winter).

And in the end, you did leave, because you could. but what would have happen if you couldn't ? I wonder how that Chris would react to reality then...?

Man... you were so close... and then you had to be cocky again...


Regarding an appeasing solution for the Hizbollah, the Palestinians and the complete Arab world that doesn't even involve the '67 borders - really ?

Are we talking about the same people that scream every Friday that they wont stop until every Jew is skinny dipping in the Mediterranean ? (well... thats not really true, some of the moderates will allow Jews who can show they've been in Israel for more than 7 generation)

Sorry mate, hmmm... make them say what you just wrote, then we'll talk.

And just a point of Political Geography - lines of 67' and complete withdrawal from occupied territories is the same. just wanted to update you on that.

Btw, sweet that you came up with 2002, what do you think about Camp David at 2000 ? guess it was AGAIN our fault


To end this post, just wanted to say that HOLY SHIT, IT JUST MIGHT BE THAT IN THESE EL
 
The last paragraph


To end this post, just wanted to say that HOLY SHIT, IT JUST MIGHT BE THAT IN THESE ELECTIONS THE SUPPOSED 70 SEATS OF THE RIGHT-WING-FANATIC-RELIGIOUS-PRO-FASCISTIC HAVE BECOME 60 ?!? relative of course to the left-centre wing that have moved from 50 seats to 60... hmmm... does that mean that... things are becoming more left-wing oriented in Israel ?!?

That was in regard to your last point about Lieberman & Bennet, so sad you're not talking about the other parties - you know, we do have them as well - from your logic, I understand that the PVV being one of the biggest parties in the Netherlands, its the only one that really shows Dutch policy ? you get my drift ?

Well, in times like these, I like to remember at what is probably your most correct point in this post - "While 14% is definitely an improvement over past Knessets" !

(I know, I know, you wrote later "are sure indicators the state of democracy hasn't been reached", but hey, if we continue like we did up until now, we bound to reach it... no ? tonight's election should tell you something)

p.s.
Can you still answer the question im asking you now all the time - why such a self-proclaimed-amazing person as yourself, wrote such a childish post to Chalav ?
 

חנהר

New member
דבר אחד פשוט

למה ההתיישבויות ממשיכות? למה לנו לבוא ולהמשיך את מה שאנחנו כבר לא יכולים או לא רוצים להחזיר בחזרה?
לפני כחודש ישבתי עם אבא שלי וראינו כתבה בעתיון, כיצד פלסיטנאים בשטח היישוב שלהם זורקים אבנים על חיילים. כמסתכלת כמעט ניטרלית מהצד אני חושבת לעצמי, מה החיילים שלנו עושים שם? בכתבה לא מצויין בכלל, הדבר היחיד שמיינו הוא האלימות של הפלסטינאים נגד חיילינו. עוד דבר, כמסתכל מהצד, האם זה נראה כוחות מבא נגד אזרחים? שוב איך העולם אמור להסתכל על ישראל?

כשדיברתי על המפלגות שלנו הצכוונתי למפלגות בישראל הגדולות, ליכוד, עבודה וכאלה.
לגבי כל מה שאמרת יש בזה המון מן הנכון. כמו תמיד אני מבינה את מה שאתה אומר ואף מזדהה עם זה.
 
וואו!

כזה מקרה קיצוני של גמל שלא רואה את הדבשת של עצמו עוד לא ראיתי.

ואני לא יודעת באיזה פורומים השתתפת מאז 2005. (אולי היית טוקבקיסט מפתח בהארץ או בדה-מרקר? )- על כל מקרה, לתפוז נרשמת ביוני האחרון אחרי שכתבת כמה ימים/שבועות תחת הכינוי הכחול של אשתך שכמודרטור (אולי תנצל את ההזדמנות ותסביר לה את המשמעות של המונח?) התנהגה בצורה בוטה וחצופה וילדותית פי כמה מהמודרטור הנוכחי וככותבת מן השורה מתגלה כטרולית מן המנין, ועוד אחת עם דבשת, אבל בלי מראה...
 

חנהר

New member
סלאש דוט תרגום חופשי בשבילך

./
טרול תחת טרול מה שנקרא, לפחות תודי במי שאת. מה שמפתיע אותי שאת יכולה להיות דעתנית בצורה מעניינת ומאוד יפה ומצד שני את יכולה להיות מפלצת ארורה, איך זה מסתדר לך בחיי היום יום? לא הייתי רוצה להיות שכנה שלך זה בטוח! כי עם שכנים כמוך, מי צריך אוייבים.
 
אני לא מאמינה שמפרחים לכל אורח

הגעת תוך כמה שבועות לרמת הביוב הזאת בה את נמצאת וממנה את מתבטאת כרגע.
זה נכון לגבי כל הפוסטים שלך כלפי.

יותר התייחסות מזה את ממש לא שווה.
אלוהים ישמור.
 

chriswinter

New member
Forums

You seem to not have understood what I actually wrote.

I have been participating in Internet forums since 1995, not 2005. Before 1995, I exchanged messages on Bulletin Board Systems, but let's not count that.

Secondly, I never said they were Israeli forums. I mentioned /., which can be found at http://slashdot.org. I've indeed also written in Dutch forums (Volkskrant, others) and Swedish forums.

Hope that clears it up, although the original post was written in pretty plain English.
 

Ronronit1

New member
זה פורום ישראלים בהולנד

אתה לא ישראלי, לא מפסיק להביע פה דיעות מלאות בשנאה לישראל ולישראלים, אף אחד, אף אחד, אף אחד ממשתתפי הפורום לא מסכים עם צורת הכתיבה שלך ועם רוב הדיעות שלך.
הפורומים של תפוז מיועדים לקוראי וכותבי עברית, מה שאתה לא!
אתה עובר על חוקי תפוז בכינויים הפוגעניים שאתה מכנה אנשים, ונפלת על מנהל פורום שמשום מה נחמד אליך ולא מוחק את הודעות הגועל נפש שלך.
אתה לא רצוי פה! וכתבו לך את זה יותר ממשתתף אחד בפורום.
מה אתה מחפש פה חוץ מפרובוקציות ? משעמם לך בחיים? לך תחפש פורומים הולנדים מנומסים ונעימי הליכות שיתאימו לך יותר.
פורומים שכותבים בשפה שלך, וחותמים בתודה בבקשה וסליחה. רוב משתתפי הפורום הזה מלאי קוצים, חוצפנים ולא אוהבים את מה שאתה כותב.
 

chriswinter

New member
Netherlands

Wasn't this a forum about Dutch culture? Or about Israelis in the Netherlands? In that case you should pay heed to what I write, because I am indeed quintessentially Dutch in many respects. Therefore my opinions are relevant to you if you are located in or planning to move to The Netherlands.

Lastly, I don't hate Israeli's. Again, and I've said this several times by now:

Questioning the morality of the past or current actions and policies of the state of Israel does not make me an anti-Semite.

Pointing out the civic responsibility of every Israeli citizen for the actions of the state of Israel also doesn't make me an anti-Semite. It is simply a natural consequence of Israel calling itself democratic.

As a citizen of the Netherlands, I feel a direct responsibility towards any and all actions the government takes in my name. This is why I stopped being a member of Groen Links when they supported military operations in Afghanistan, and it is the reason why I lodged a complaint with the KLPD (the National Police) when two Antilians were arrested for wearing a T-shirt that said "Zwarte Piet is Racisme" at a Sinterklaas intocht. First of all these two guys are right, secondly the police infringed on their right to free speech by doing so.

As a citizen I must be vigilant of the actions of his or her state. All it takes for evil to happen is for good people to do nothing.
 
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